XP defined?

[Ken Boucher]

One of my impressions was that XP is _something_ consisting of 4
values, 12ish practices, and 15 principles.

What that something is, I've never really understood.

If I'm understanding things, the new book describes the same XP but
the more I read what you're saying here and on the XP Yahoo forum
the more I realize that I have no idea what "xp" really is. I don't
know if it's a methodology, a philosophy, or what it is. The practices
seem to have changed, as well as the principles, but the _something_,
whatever it is, is still the same.

So, what is XP? What is that unchanging _something_?





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[Colin Putney]

Post by Ken Boucher
If I'm understanding things, the new book describes the same XP but
the more I read what you're saying here and on the XP Yahoo forum
the more I realize that I have no idea what "xp" really is. I don't
know if it's a methodology, a philosophy, or what it is. The practices
seem to have changed, as well as the principles, but the _something_,
whatever it is, is still the same.

Such is the tao.




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[glbrown-R1E0pc0n5SWB+]

Teamwork?

One of my impressions was that XP is _something_ consisting of  4
values, 12ish practices,  and 15 principles.
What that something is, I've never really understood.
If I'm understanding things, the new book describes the same XP but
the more I read what you're saying here and on the XP Yahoo forum
the more I realize that I have no idea what "xp" really is. I don't
know if it's a methodology, a philosophy, or what it is. The practices
seem to have changed, as well as the principles, but the _something_,
whatever it is, is still the same.
So, what is XP? What is that unchanging _something_?
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[Ilja Preuss]

Post by Ken Boucher
So, what is XP? What is that unchanging _something_?

It is what you do when you know the values, principles and practices by
heart.

Regards, Ilja



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[banshee858]

Post by Ken Boucher
One of my impressions was that XP is _something_ consisting of 4
values, 12ish practices, and 15 principles.
What that something is, I've never really understood.

I figure XP is the 4 values and the 12 practices. I do not know
where these 15 principles come from at all and only add to the
confusion. If you are a co-located, cross-functional team that uses
the 4 values and 12 practices, you are following the software
process. That is pretty much what I feel is XP - a software
development process for highly effective, quality teams.

I never really got into all the Eastern mysticism associated with it;
I understand some of the leaders are influenced by those ideas.

Carlton





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[Ron Jeffries]

Post by banshee858
I figure XP is the 4 values and the 12 practices. I do not know
where these 15 principles come from at all and only add to the
confusion.

They're in the initial white book.

And the new white book, rumor has it, has around 20 practices.

I even think that Crystal Clear and Scrum are really talking about the same
"thing" as I am when I talk about XP.

Post by banshee858
If you are a co-located, cross-functional team that uses
the 4 values and 12 practices, you are following the software
process. That is pretty much what I feel is XP - a software
development process for highly effective, quality teams.

So ... if you don't have a metaphor, you're not doing XP? What if you don't
really have a coding standard?

It seems to me that one could be doing XP without those things, perhaps.

Post by banshee858
I never really got into all the Eastern mysticism associated with it;
I understand some of the leaders are influenced by those ideas.

Not as much as you might think. But, wax on / wax off really is a good way
to learn to do certain things better.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Master your instrument, master the music,
and then forget all that *!xy!@ and just play. -- Charlie Parker




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[Colin Putney]

Post by banshee858
I never really got into all the Eastern mysticism associated with it;
I understand some of the leaders are influenced by those ideas.

I guess my last post was a little terse, and for that I apologize. I've
never heard any XP luminary admit to being "influenced" by eastern
philosophy, but there do seem to be similarities that have become
apparent after the fact.

I think the reason is that practicing XP effectively requires a shift
in perception that is similar to the enlightenment that eastern
philosophy seeks. To those immersed in waterfall or something similar,
the values and practices that are part of XP seem nonsensical until
that shift - that big "Aha!" - occurs. After that, it all makes sense.
I really wish I could have attended Brian Marick's OOPSLA talk on this
subject; the paper is here:
http://www.testing.com/writings/methodology-and-ontology.pdf.

I've also noticed that people who teach XP sometimes do or say
seemingly odd things in order to help people to examine their
assumptions and make it easier to make that perceptual shift. Eastern
teachers do this also, in even odder ways, since they assumptions they
want to challenge are more basic than the ones we encounter in the
course of software development.

Justice Stewart's non-definition of pornography might fit XP as well:
"I know it when I see it." In the end, XP is what it is. It gets
adapted by various teams to their unique situations, and continues to
evolve as those experiences are shared and elaborated upon by the
community. There may not be a pithy phrase or a checklist of practices
that one can hold up as the canonical definition of XP, but there *is*
something we can easily recognize when we encounter it.

Colin



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[Ron Jeffries]

Post by Colin Putney
I've also noticed that people who teach XP sometimes do or say
seemingly odd things in order to help people to examine their
assumptions and make it easier to make that perceptual shift. Eastern
teachers do this also, in even odder ways, since they assumptions they
want to challenge are more basic than the ones we encounter in the
course of software development.

Unfortunately, sometimes we just do or say odd things. And also
unfortunately, sometimes people really react badly to odd things intended
to jolt the mind into a new kind of understanding. At least most of us
don't hit people with sticks.

But I agree that there is a perceptual shift that we're trying to induce.
We come to realize that we are seeing things differently, reacting
differently, and we kind of try to jar people's needle into a new track.

(I suppose that now no one recognizes that metaphor any more. <sigh>)

Post by Colin Putney
"I know it when I see it." In the end, XP is what it is. It gets
adapted by various teams to their unique situations, and continues to
evolve as those experiences are shared and elaborated upon by the
community. There may not be a pithy phrase or a checklist of practices
that one can hold up as the canonical definition of XP, but there *is*
something we can easily recognize when we encounter it.

I become more and more sure that XP is /not/ "do these N things all the
time". Yet I remain strong in the feeling that there is a "thing" that I'm
doing.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
It's easy to have a complicated idea. It's very very hard to have a simple idea.
-- Carver Mead




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[Colin Putney]

Post by Ron Jeffries
But I agree that there is a perceptual shift that we're trying to induce.
We come to realize that we are seeing things differently, reacting
differently, and we kind of try to jar people's needle into a new track.

This is what I like about your questions that begin with "What would
have to be true..." Instead of pitting opposing ideas against each
other, it's a very gentle way of asking someone to imagine an
alternative. One can answer by rattling off a list of preposterous
things, things that are clearly *not* true and... uh, well probably
not, anyway... and besides, that would mean... hmm.

Colin



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[Ron Jeffries]

Post by Colin Putney

Post by Ron Jeffries
But I agree that there is a perceptual shift that we're trying to induce.
We come to realize that we are seeing things differently, reacting
differently, and we kind of try to jar people's needle into a new track.

This is what I like about your questions that begin with "What would
have to be true..." Instead of pitting opposing ideas against each
other, it's a very gentle way of asking someone to imagine an
alternative. One can answer by rattling off a list of preposterous
things, things that are clearly *not* true and... uh, well probably
not, anyway... and besides, that would mean... hmm.

Probably OT for the group, but it does relate to communicating what this is
all about. Some people /hate/ those questions, find them condescending.
Frankly that p1sses me off, as while I do have a cold appreciation of my
own excellence, I also have a delighted appreciation for my own flaws and
stupidity, which pretty much cancels out the other stuff. I don't do
condescending. Everyone knows something interesting that I don't know and
wish I did.

But oh well ... mostly I figure that if people get hurt or angry, it tells
us something about them, and about ourselves.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Example isn't another way to teach, it is the only way to teach.
--Albert Einstein




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[Kent Beck]

Here is my answer from the first chapter:

XP is giving up old, ineffective technical and social habits in favor of
new ones.
XP is fully appreciating yourself for total effort today.
XP is striving to do better tomorrow.
XP is evaluating yourself by your contribution to the team's shared
goals.
XP is asking to get some of your human needs met through software
development.

Kent Beck
Three Rivers Institute

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 7:28 AM
Subject: [xpe2e] XP defined?
One of my impressions was that XP is _something_ consisting
of 4 values, 12ish practices, and 15 principles.
What that something is, I've never really understood.
If I'm understanding things, the new book describes the same
XP but the more I read what you're saying here and on the XP
Yahoo forum the more I realize that I have no idea what "xp"
really is. I don't know if it's a methodology, a philosophy,
or what it is. The practices seem to have changed, as well as
the principles, but the _something_,
whatever it is, is still the same.
So, what is XP? What is that unchanging _something_?

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