Discussion:
Practice: Code and Tests
Kent Beck
2005-04-21 06:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Maintain only the code and the tests as permanent artifacts. Generate other
documents from the code and tests. Rely on social mechanisms to keep alive
important history of the project.
Customers pay for the what the system does today and what the team can
make the system do tomorrow. Any artifacts contributing to these two sources
of value are themselves valuable. Everything else is waste.
Code and Tests is a practice that is easy to approach a little at a time.
A complicated five-stage document-driven process can be lightened up a
little at a time as the team acquires more skill. The better the team is at
incremental design, the fewer design decisions it has to make up front. The
clearer the quarterly cycle becomes at expressing the business priorities,
the slimmer the requirement document can be.
The trend in software development has been just the opposite for decades.
Ceremony interferes with the flow of value. The valuable decisions in
software development are: What are we going to do? What aren't we going to
do? and How are we going to do what we do? Bringing those decisions together
so they can feed each other smooths the flow of value. Eliminating
now-obsolete artifacts enables that improvement.
Tim King
2005-04-21 15:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi, all. I was actually surprised that any developer would actually
_want_ to generate massive documentation. But apparently some do. On one
3-person project, my two peers wanted to write Word documents for months
before generating working code. I on the other hand preferred a
just-in-time approach and was more interested in delivering working
code. They actually started putting together Word documents filled with
C-style function prototypes, in order to describe the high-level design.
Why not just generate .h files? Then at least you can compile them and
find out whether the syntax is truly correct.

What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why this
urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no ready
response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write Word
documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin generating a
working design? Is it tradition? Is it the mistaken belief that Word
documents are somehow easier to edit than source files? I had thought it
was a management thing, but apparently that's not always the case. What
are the forces contributing to the wave of obsolete documentation?

-TimK
--
J. Timothy King ..team-oriented..object-oriented..Agile..
www.jtse.com ..C++..Perl..Java..assembly..embedded.systems..
banshee858
2005-04-21 16:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim King
Hi, all. I was actually surprised that any developer would actually
_want_ to generate massive documentation. But apparently some do. On
one 3-person project, my two peers wanted to write Word documents
for months before generating working code. I on the other hand
preferred a just-in-time approach and was more interested in
delivering working code. They actually started putting together Word
documents filled with C-style function prototypes, in order to
describe the high-level design. Why not just generate .h files? Then
at least you can compile them and find out whether the syntax is
truly correct.
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why
this urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no
ready response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write
Word documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin
generating a working design? Is it tradition? Is it the mistaken
belief that Word documents are somehow easier to edit than source
files? I had thought it was a management thing, but apparently
that's not always the case. What are the forces contributing to the
wave of obsolete documentation?
I'd be curious to hear some speculation on this since you describe
something very similar to what I am experiencing now. It does not
make sense to me. I suspect it has something to do with comfort.

Carlton
Dale Emery
2005-04-21 21:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Carlton,
Post by banshee858
I'd be curious to hear some speculation on this since you
describe something very similar to what I am experiencing
now. It does not make sense to me. I suspect it has
something to do with comfort.
What reasons do your colleagues give you for what they're doing?

Dale
Kent Beck
2005-04-22 06:59:41 UTC
Permalink
I wonder what need is being filled, both by writing the documents and by not
writing tests/code. Could you have a non-judgemental discussion with one of
the people who practice documentation-first and find out what their
conscious purposes and principles are?

Kent Beck
Three Rivers Institute
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: [xpe2e] Re: Practice: Code and Tests
Post by Tim King
Hi, all. I was actually surprised that any developer would actually
_want_ to generate massive documentation. But apparently some do. On
one 3-person project, my two peers wanted to write Word documents
for months before generating working code. I on the other hand
preferred a just-in-time approach and was more interested in
delivering working code. They actually started putting together Word
documents filled with C-style function prototypes, in order to
describe the high-level design. Why not just generate .h files? Then
at least you can compile them and find out whether the syntax is
truly correct.
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why
this urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no
ready response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write
Word documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin
generating a working design? Is it tradition? Is it the mistaken
belief that Word documents are somehow easier to edit than source
files? I had thought it was a management thing, but apparently
that's not always the case. What are the forces contributing to the
wave of obsolete documentation?
I'd be curious to hear some speculation on this since you describe
something very similar to what I am experiencing now. It does not
make sense to me. I suspect it has something to do with comfort.
Carlton
Yahoo! Groups Links
Jim Shore
2005-04-21 16:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim King
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why this
urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no ready
response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write Word
documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin generating a
working design?
It's an easy way to feel productive without the risk of failure.

That's my guess.
Jim
--
James Shore - Titanium I.T. LLC - Successful Software
See my new website and blog: http://www.jamesshore.com

phone: 503-267-5490
email: jshore-***@public.gmane.org
bernard_notarianni
2005-04-23 08:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Shore
Post by Tim King
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why this
urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no ready
response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write Word
documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin generating a
working design?
It's an easy way to feel productive without the risk of failure.
That's my guess.
Jim
Agree.

I have seen that in many occasion: even managers are sometime seeking
huge amount of paper just to show that the team is working. Of course,
no one could say if the document is relevant or not. Anyway, nobody
care about them.
Dale Emery
2005-04-21 21:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tim,
What are the forces contributing to the wave of obsolete
documentation?
What did your colleagues say about that?

Dale
Adrian Howard
2005-04-27 15:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim King
Hi, all. I was actually surprised that any developer would actually
_want_ to generate massive documentation. But apparently some do.
[snip]
Post by Tim King
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why this
urge existed.
[snip]

Can't speak for the people in question of course - but for myself, in
my pre-agile long boring document stage, I'd say it was a learned
behaviour to avoid pain.

This is the pattern I've seen a few times. I certainly followed
something close to it.

1) N layers between developer and the person with the requirements,
with feedback every month or so if they're lucky.

2) On the first project the approach is take a best guess at the
requirements as written and code it up. Turns out to be wrong (of
course). Wrists slapped for wasting time coding the wrong thing.

3) Wanting to avoid wrist slaps in their next project the developer
writes document saying "When you say Foo do you mean FooBar or
FooWibble?" for every ambiguous requirement. Dozens, if not hundreds,
of messages amble up and down the chain of people between the developer
and the requirement person in a lovely game of chinese whispers. The
implementation turns out to be wrong (of course). Face slapped for
wasting project managers, product managers and clients time with morass
of little messages.

4) Wanting to avoid face slaps in their third project the developer
throws all the questions and assumptions into a BigDocument that looks
darn impressive and is happily thrown up and down the chain a few times
before implementing. The implementation turns out to be wrong (of
course), but this time slaps are avoided by the developer since they
can point to the BigDocument and pass the buck up the hierarchy.

5) BigDocument == no slaps.

To break this behaviour you have to realise that you're solving the
wrong problems, and getting punished for the wrong mistakes.

The real problems are:
- N layers between the developer and the customer
- long periods between feedback
- thinking documents are more effective than writing wrong code and
then fixing it

And thank goodness for Kent and other agile folk for helping me realise
this :-)

Cheers,

Adrian

Tommaso Torti
2005-04-21 16:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim King
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why this
urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no ready
response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write Word
documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin generating a
working design?
Instead i think it may be a matter of working environment.
If the company usually changes its programmers the knowledge flows away.
Sometimes we hear a latin sentence: Verba Volant Scripta Manent.

Hope this explanation may be a fragment of the truth!

----
Tommaso Torti
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TortiTommaso







Yahoo! Groups Links

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George Dinwiddie
2005-04-24 13:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommaso Torti
Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
Babelfish doesn't do Latin. Could you translate for me?

- George
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; iDIA Computing, LLC
So many I loved were not yet dead, gdinwiddie-HLNzD44B1AikJOqCEYON2AC/***@public.gmane.org
So many I love were not yet born. http://www.idiacomputing.com
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Jeffries
2005-04-24 14:51:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dinwiddie
Post by Tommaso Torti
Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
Babelfish doesn't do Latin. Could you translate for me?
My ancient memories suggest: words fly, writing remains.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
You do ill if you praise, but worse if you censure,
what you do not understand. --Leonardo da Vinci
Jeff Grigg
2005-04-25 13:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Jeffries
Post by Tommaso Torti
Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
My ancient memories suggest: words fly, writing remains.
You are a fount of knowledge. I'm impressed. Honestly.


"Verba volant, scripta manent."
= Spoken words fly away, written words remain.

according to
http://www.rktekt.com/ck/LatSayings2.html

And several other pages contain similar translations.
Amir Kolsky
2005-04-22 13:53:51 UTC
Permalink
I am a vehement anti-pre-documenter (APD). I have oft had discussions with
those that are in favor of documentation, especially design documents. The
recurring theme is that they want 'plan ahead' so they won't make mistakes
in design which will cost them (timewise, usually) in the future.

We often assert that if a project is destined to last 6 months it will last
6 months whichever way you choose to run it, be it XP or RUP or WE. The
difference is in the the project's residuals. If you go with a document
first approach, you're left with said first documents. If you go with the
TDD approach you're left with all the tests. Now, it's up to you to decide
which is more valuable.

Yes yes yes yes. I have left out TONS of other good XP stuff. But then, I
also left out the warm fuzzies that management gets from all these
documents...

Amir Kolsky
XP& Software



_____

From: xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Kent Beck
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 9:00 AM
To: xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [xpe2e] Re: Practice: Code and Tests


I wonder what need is being filled, both by writing the documents and by not
writing tests/code. Could you have a non-judgemental discussion with one of
the people who practice documentation-first and find out what their
conscious purposes and principles are?

Kent Beck
Three Rivers Institute
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: [xpe2e] Re: Practice: Code and Tests
Post by Tim King
Hi, all. I was actually surprised that any developer would actually
_want_ to generate massive documentation. But apparently some do. On
one 3-person project, my two peers wanted to write Word documents
for months before generating working code. I on the other hand
preferred a just-in-time approach and was more interested in
delivering working code. They actually started putting together Word
documents filled with C-style function prototypes, in order to
describe the high-level design. Why not just generate .h files? Then
at least you can compile them and find out whether the syntax is
truly correct.
What confused me is that I didn't understand--and still don't--why
this urge existed. I had never encountered it before and had no
ready response (at least not one that actually worked). Why write
Word documents that will become obsolete as soon as you begin
generating a working design? Is it tradition? Is it the mistaken
belief that Word documents are somehow easier to edit than source
files? I had thought it was a management thing, but apparently
that's not always the case. What are the forces contributing to the
wave of obsolete documentation?
I'd be curious to hear some speculation on this since you describe
something very similar to what I am experiencing now. It does not
make sense to me. I suspect it has something to do with comfort.
Carlton
Yahoo! Groups Links
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banshee858
2005-04-22 16:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Beck
I wonder what need is being filled, both by writing the documents
and by not writing tests/code. Could you have a non-judgemental
discussion with one of the people who practice documentation-first
and find out what their conscious purposes and principles are?
I agree this is an avenue of exploration where I can learn something.
In the past, I recalled being told we need "to get the design right"
before beginning work on this project and "we need to complete this
checkbox". I am not sure if this is the reason why we are writing
these specific documents.

Carlton
Tim King
2005-04-22 17:41:01 UTC
Permalink
I asked, why use a documentation-first approach?
Post by Jim Shore
It's an easy way to feel productive without the risk of failure.
This is what I thought at first, and I even for a while had up on my
cube wall a printout of WorryDrivenDevelopment from c2.com/wiki, which
elicited a couple of laughs before (I think) people started suspecting
maybe I didn't think it was a joke. :-}

True, I don't think it's a joke, but that's a different subject. While
this may have been a driving force, especially considering the corporate
culture (which I'll get to in a moment), I don't believe it sufficiently
explains this instance. Management indeed wanted documentation. But one
of the developers (with whom I no longer have contact) pushed for lots
of documentation up-front, much more than management needed.
Post by Jim Shore
Instead i think it may be a matter of working environment.
If the company usually changes its programmers the knowledge flows away.
Sometimes we hear a latin sentence: Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
The company does commonly foist multiple projects on each developer. And
it also physically seperates developers from each other. This in
combination with inter-departmental political barriers make
communication very weak and trust very difficult to establish. One of
means used to compensate for these weaknesses is formal documentation.

But this project involved only a few developers in a single group of a
single department. And the company keeps the same developers on active
projects, so the knowledge is usually there when needed.
Post by Jim Shore
I suspect it has something to do with comfort.
It surely may. I remember once I (unwisely) said in a meeting between
the three of us that we should wrap up, because "I have work to do."
This other developer took on a stern, passionate aire and said, "We ARE
working." I clearly had hit a hot button, in a very undiplomatic way.
But truthfully, though we were doing work, we weren't getting anything
done, nothing that could be delivered anyhow.

I even spent time generating a skeleton for the project. In a single
week, working alone, I constructed an end-to-end implementation that
actually worked. No, it didn't have all the whizzy features the final
software was to have. But it performed all the critical functions and
had pieces for all the architectural components. I used it to gather
statistics to prove the superiority of the implementation over a
20-year-old implementation we were working to replace.

I might as well have been talking to myself, though., because apparently
I had missed a critical phase of software development: all the
documentation that was necessary to describe the architecture. "Just
look at the code," I said. "For whatever's muddled in it, let's sit down
and look at it together." Nothing-- Except complaints that he couldn't
find his way around the codebase of a dozen classes (which were
documented), along with requests that I generate a Word document
explaining how the code works, followed by befuddled expressions on my
own face. I've never felt so much like a failure. And still, I don't
understand what it was that I missed.

Good developers, I guess, sometimes have honest differences of opinion
that can't be resolved.
Post by Jim Shore
Could you have a non-judgemental discussion with one of
the people who practice documentation-first and find out what their
conscious purposes and principles are?
I cannot have any further follow-up discussions, since the developer in
question is no longer with the company, and I have no way to contact
him. But I would be very interested in hearing what Carlton's colleagues
have to say.
Post by Jim Shore
The recurring theme is that they want 'plan ahead' so they
won't make mistakes in design which will cost them...
I also heard this theme. And I think we all agree that we should
understand what we're designing before we design it. But source files
are not more difficult to change than Word files. In fact, the reverse
is true. Inevitably there will be big problems with your initial shot at
high-level design (and in this case, there were), and you'll have to fix
them when you generate code, and you'll have to update your Word files
if you want them to be correct. This is especially true when you start
listing function prototypes in design documents. Big documentation up
front is wasteful. Having been on both sides of this fence, I feel
confident in saying so.

Of course, this didn't seem to address the real issue, even though it
was a recurring theme in our discussions.
Post by Jim Shore
We often assert that if a project is destined to last 6 months it will
last 6 months whichever way you choose to run it, be it XP or RUP or WE.
The difference is in the the project's residuals.
This assumes that you can successfully document a design before the
design exists. In my experience, this has never been true. You can
_think about_ a design before it exists. But once you start turning the
design into a working (or not) deliverable, you're going to discover
deficiencies that you'll need to correct. It's better then to keep the
up-front documentation only as heavy as it needs to be for intra-team
communication, because you're going to need to change it later.

(Note that in other engineering disciplines, the theory of operation is
written _after_ the design is complete and proven. Why do we insist on
writing the theory of operation first?)
Post by Jim Shore
Yes yes yes yes. I have left out TONS of other good XP stuff. But then,
I also left out the warm fuzzies that management gets from all these
documents...
How about if I take my Doxygen or JavaDoc output and put it in a Word or
PDF file? I've actually been surprised at how much paper Doxygen and
JavaDoc can use up. ;-)

-TimK
--
J. Timothy King ..team-oriented..object-oriented..Agile..
www.jtse.com ..C++..Perl..Java..assembly..embedded.systems..
William E Caputo
2005-04-22 20:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Because we can't talk to the original person, in the orginal context, all
of this is of course idle speculation, but here's two thoughts that
Post by Tim King
I might as well have been talking to myself, though., because apparently
I had missed a critical phase of software development: all the
documentation that was necessary to describe the architecture.
This paragraph and the following one where the person couldn't find their
way around, sound like classic examples of spoken motive masking true
motive -- i.e. it sounds like he was using this as an indirect way to
avoid having to disagree with you(for whatever reason, he didn't agree
with your design, It didn't match his pet approach, he didn't want you
getting credit, he didn't want you to look more productive, he was more
comfortable with the old system, etc). In general, I often see people use
process points as a series of delaying and distraction tactics because its
a culturally acceptable way to stonewall an opponent (where opponent is
anyone whose success affects one negatively -- even in one's own mind).
This is doubly effective when the process point is only subjectively
verifiable.

Another thing I have seen is to use documentation to minimize
disappointment: If I spend four months writing the document, and then they
kill the project, I won't have invested myself into code that won't see
the light of day.

Still another possibility that I have seen is using documentation as a way
to work (i.e. put in your 8 hour day) without having to produce anything
that can be objectively criticized.

Finally, and probably my least negative one: some people seem to feel more
comfortable thinking, talking and writing about their designs than
acutally implementing them. In no small measure this is IMHO due to the
deeply ingrained cultural norm in software development that if you ever
have to revisit something it implies a failure in your first effort. By
documenting and delaying that first effort, you can procrastinate this
unpleasant happenstance. I wrote about this aspect of Agile development
way back in my second blog entry:
http://www.williamcaputo.com/archives/000002.html

As I said all speculation.

Best,
Bill

William E. Caputo
ThoughtWorks, Inc.
http://www.williamcaputo.com
--------
omnis cellula e cellula





Tim King <timk-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent by: xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org
04/22/2005 12:41 PM
Please respond to
xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org


To
xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org
cc

Subject
Re: [xpe2e] Practice: Code and Tests







I asked, why use a documentation-first approach?
Post by Tim King
It's an easy way to feel productive without the risk of failure.
This is what I thought at first, and I even for a while had up on my
cube wall a printout of WorryDrivenDevelopment from c2.com/wiki, which
elicited a couple of laughs before (I think) people started suspecting
maybe I didn't think it was a joke. :-}

True, I don't think it's a joke, but that's a different subject. While
this may have been a driving force, especially considering the corporate
culture (which I'll get to in a moment), I don't believe it sufficiently
explains this instance. Management indeed wanted documentation. But one
of the developers (with whom I no longer have contact) pushed for lots
of documentation up-front, much more than management needed.
Post by Tim King
Instead i think it may be a matter of working environment.
If the company usually changes its programmers the knowledge flows away.
Sometimes we hear a latin sentence: Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
The company does commonly foist multiple projects on each developer. And
it also physically seperates developers from each other. This in
combination with inter-departmental political barriers make
communication very weak and trust very difficult to establish. One of
means used to compensate for these weaknesses is formal documentation.

But this project involved only a few developers in a single group of a
single department. And the company keeps the same developers on active
projects, so the knowledge is usually there when needed.
Post by Tim King
I suspect it has something to do with comfort.
It surely may. I remember once I (unwisely) said in a meeting between
the three of us that we should wrap up, because "I have work to do."
This other developer took on a stern, passionate aire and said, "We ARE
working." I clearly had hit a hot button, in a very undiplomatic way.
But truthfully, though we were doing work, we weren't getting anything
done, nothing that could be delivered anyhow.

I even spent time generating a skeleton for the project. In a single
week, working alone, I constructed an end-to-end implementation that
actually worked. No, it didn't have all the whizzy features the final
software was to have. But it performed all the critical functions and
had pieces for all the architectural components. I used it to gather
statistics to prove the superiority of the implementation over a
20-year-old implementation we were working to replace.

I might as well have been talking to myself, though., because apparently
I had missed a critical phase of software development: all the
documentation that was necessary to describe the architecture. "Just
look at the code," I said. "For whatever's muddled in it, let's sit down
and look at it together." Nothing-- Except complaints that he couldn't
find his way around the codebase of a dozen classes (which were
documented), along with requests that I generate a Word document
explaining how the code works, followed by befuddled expressions on my
own face. I've never felt so much like a failure. And still, I don't
understand what it was that I missed.

Good developers, I guess, sometimes have honest differences of opinion
that can't be resolved.
Post by Tim King
Could you have a non-judgemental discussion with one of
the people who practice documentation-first and find out what their
conscious purposes and principles are?
I cannot have any further follow-up discussions, since the developer in
question is no longer with the company, and I have no way to contact
him. But I would be very interested in hearing what Carlton's colleagues
have to say.
Post by Tim King
The recurring theme is that they want 'plan ahead' so they
won't make mistakes in design which will cost them...
I also heard this theme. And I think we all agree that we should
understand what we're designing before we design it. But source files
are not more difficult to change than Word files. In fact, the reverse
is true. Inevitably there will be big problems with your initial shot at
high-level design (and in this case, there were), and you'll have to fix
them when you generate code, and you'll have to update your Word files
if you want them to be correct. This is especially true when you start
listing function prototypes in design documents. Big documentation up
front is wasteful. Having been on both sides of this fence, I feel
confident in saying so.

Of course, this didn't seem to address the real issue, even though it
was a recurring theme in our discussions.
Post by Tim King
We often assert that if a project is destined to last 6 months it will
last 6 months whichever way you choose to run it, be it XP or RUP or WE.
The difference is in the the project's residuals.
This assumes that you can successfully document a design before the
design exists. In my experience, this has never been true. You can
_think about_ a design before it exists. But once you start turning the
design into a working (or not) deliverable, you're going to discover
deficiencies that you'll need to correct. It's better then to keep the
up-front documentation only as heavy as it needs to be for intra-team
communication, because you're going to need to change it later.

(Note that in other engineering disciplines, the theory of operation is
written _after_ the design is complete and proven. Why do we insist on
writing the theory of operation first?)
Post by Tim King
Yes yes yes yes. I have left out TONS of other good XP stuff. But then,
I also left out the warm fuzzies that management gets from all these
documents...
How about if I take my Doxygen or JavaDoc output and put it in a Word or
PDF file? I've actually been surprised at how much paper Doxygen and
JavaDoc can use up. ;-)

-TimK
--
J. Timothy King ..team-oriented..object-oriented..Agile..
www.jtse.com ..C++..Perl..Java..assembly..embedded.systems..



Yahoo! Groups Links
William E Caputo
2005-04-22 20:50:25 UTC
Permalink
but here's two thoughts that occurred to me while reading your Summary
Tim:

Of course that became four thoughts by the end. So much for my
proofreading skills. :-)

Best,
Bill

William E. Caputo
ThoughtWorks, Inc.
http://www.williamcaputo.com
--------
omnis cellula e cellula
Tommaso Torti
2005-04-26 11:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Words Fly Away, Writings Remain

-----Original Message-----
From: xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org on behalf of George Dinwiddie
Sent: Sun 24/04/2005 15.08
To: xpbookdiscussiongroup-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [xpe2e] Practice: Code and Tests
Post by Tommaso Torti
Verba Volant Scripta Manent.
Babelfish doesn't do Latin. Could you translate for me?

- George




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